Chairman, Presidential Advisory Committee Against
Corruption, Prof Itse Sagay, has said that the governor of Ekiti State, Ayo
Fayose has implicated himself by admitting that former President Olusegun
Obasanjo forced him and other governors to donate to his Presidential Library.
He called for the investigation and trial of both Obasanjo and the former
governors who diverted state funds into an individual’s private venture. In
this interview with VINCENT KALU, the legal luminary stated that in law, both
the receiver and the giver are guilty.
You accused the Nigeria Customs of being very corrupt, how
did you come to that conclusion?
I’m not going into details on this matter. We have met the
Comptroller General, who is extremely concerned about lack of change in some of
the Customs establishments, and he has made up his mind to make extra efforts
to make sure that the situation is changed drastically.
He reassured by the concern that he showed, and he is a man
of his words, honest and so he will do as he had said.
Why is it that in the face of the onslaught against
corruption that some people are so hardened to refuse to slow down while
Nigeria’s rating in the global corruption index has not improved?
Even though you need a psychologist to answer that, but my
feeling is that people are used to impunity; doing illegal things and getting
away with it. Over the years, particularly since we returned to civilian rule
in 1999, that habit is dying very hard.
However, I’m confident that increasing convictions – when
they begin to see that people are actually going to prison to spend years of
their lives, we will see an improvement in the conduct of people.
I’m not saying that is the only way you can reduce
corruption. There are other positive ways, which include, engaging the society,
the communities to make them see that at the end of the day, corruption is the
enemy of everybody – that on that road where your uncle had an accident, that
the contractor didn’t spend the money to do it well; on that hospital where
your sister had a severe problem trying to have a baby was because of lack of
equipment because the person who was supposed to equip it bolted away with the
money, etc. The massive youth unemployment that is all over the place is
because of corruption. We have to educate the public to make them appreciate
that corruption is not just about stealing public money, it is also depriving
the masses of certain rights, including right to life, right to education,
right to housing, right to safe driving and usage of our roads.
We need to get our people identify the consequences of
corruption, and not to look at it that the man only stole government money. It
is more than that.
When that begins to happen, it will be reduced. In addition
to that, the increase in the rate and severity of punishment, like the one we
had few days ago, when a former governor of Adamawa State was sentenced to five
years imprisonment without an option of fine. We are going to see more and more
of that.
Most Nigerians have the opinion that the presidency seems to
shield government officials who are alleged to be involved in corrupt
practices; take the case of Secretary to the Government of the Federation, that
Senate had accused him of corruption over the cutting of grass at one of the
IDP camps, and it is believed that the presidency has cleared him?
If I read the argument well, it was that the Senate has not
interviewed him. The Attorney General has interviewed him and written a report
on that.
The Senate should invite him personally. If he sends
someone, Senate should reject it and insist on him appearing personally.
Warrant should be issued against him if he doesn’t come.
That case is not yet over.
They cited Chief of Army Staff that was alleged to be
involved in properties in Dubai and other places and the presidency came up to
clear him because both the SGF and COAS are parts of the government?
I don’t subscribe to that. It will be wrong to shield
anybody from the consequences of his action. By being in government, your
standard should be higher than those outside, because if you do not demonstrate
that standard you have no basis to expect the public to show some rectitude in
your behaviour. I think all these matters are still on.
On the Buratai affair, I don’t really know the details. Our
committee is like a think tank. All I heard was that he contributed to
acquiring a property. Again, I cannot verify. It is up to the authority to
pursue that issue.
How would you feel if after your efforts and another
government comes up and discovers that there was so much looting in this
present government?
I will be very depressed. Those who are involved in this
government, even those of us who are at the periphery are supposed to uphold
the highest standard of morality and incorruptibility in public affairs, if one
is found guilty of anything that has to do with corruption, then what is the
basis of saying that you are running a government whose main mantra is to
eliminate corruption. It is very important that everybody who is associated
with this government in any way should show a high level of rectitude and
integrity. If anyone is found wanting, such person should be dealt with very
dearly because he or she is denting the image of this government.
The arguments continue to rage that the fight against
corruption by this government is one sided; that only those in opposition are
being prosecuted, and if the anti-graft war is wholesome, there are some people
in the government who should be facing prosecution. What is your position on
this?
In this matter, the question of proof, evidence is very
important. I’m not surprised that most of the people who are under
investigation or facing prosecution are people in the last government, because
they were the ones who had access to the national resources. The PDP controlled
most of the states then. That is why the preponderance of people being
prosecuted come from that party.
If any person from APC is found to have soiled his hands,
his own punishment should be stronger because it is an embarrassment to the
government whose main qualification or basis of coming to power is that it
wants to sanitise the society.
I’m not surprised that it is mainly those who were in the
former government because they were the ones who had access to our resources
and the government at that time didn’t seem to be in control of anything. They
just allowed anybody to do whatever he or she wanted and got away with it.
However, the law should apply to everybody.
At the opening of the Presidential Library built by former
president Olusegun Obasanjo last week, Ekiti State governor, Ayo Fayose said,
Obasanjo forced all the then serving 36 state governors to contribute N10
million each, making N360 million to the project. How can you describe such a
thing?
I believe it. There was a lot of complaints at that time
that Chief Obasanjo was twisting the arms of those governors and other public
officials to donate to the library.
As someone said in a write up recently that you are not even
supposed to donate public money to a private library. What Fayose and the
governors did was improper, and it sounds very ill in the mouth of Fayose to
raise this issue now. Why did he do it in the first place? It sounds very ill
in his mouth that he committed an illegality and when you fell out with the man
in whose favour you committed it you now come out and begin to cry foul.
He should be the first person to be punished because he put
his hands into state funds and donated it to a private person. In fact, he has
convicted himself already of stealing N10 million from his own government. That
is disturbing.
In law, both the receiver and the giver are guilty. There is
no question about that. So, Fayose, as well as the other governors, the givers
and Obasanjo the receiver are guilty and should be prosecuted.
Obasanjo, when he came out from prison was almost bankrupt,
but after eight years as president, he seems to be very wealthy that when rich
Nigerians are counted he wouldn’t be missing. The anti-graft war seems not
interested in such sudden wealth? Why can’t the war be stretched to Obasanjo’s
time?
You are right. We have cases of 2003 that is, during
Obasanjo’s regime. Some of these past governors, many of them are in the
Senate. Their cases are still going on. Their cases have all been to the
Supreme Court on technical points and many are coming back and are now being
prosecuted. The substantive matters are being heard. All they were talking about
is jurisdiction.
Majority of people facing prosecution come from PDP, and the
reason is that they were in power for so long. Prosecution is not for those who
lost power in 2015. It started from 2003. They are now vigorously pursued
because the law is much tighter and favorable towards a streamlined and
efficient prosecution of these cases.
Can we give enough protection to the whistle blowers when
those who have well armed security guards have been killed?
There is no absolute guarantee of safety. Protection will be
offered and it will have some effects. A person who is being protected should
also be very alert against any possibilities. It is not for him to relax and
say he is being protected. No doubt, there is a risk in it. I learnt that the
first whistleblower rejected his five per cent commission.
Part of the policy of protection includes not stating who
blew the whistle; the name will never be released.
Why do you take interest in fight against corruption at the
risk of your life?
I take an interest in trying to right the wrongs that our
society is suffering from, a few elites who are in a position of power and
authority and abuse it grossly, thereby subjecting our people to a lot of
sufferings, and the whole country to under development.
It is the injustice that those people are subjecting us to
that motivates me.
Why do you want to get so much of public funds that if you
live 1000 years you can’t finish it when there are so many people dying daily
of hunger; millions are unemployed; hospitals are unequipped, roads are not
being built, and we are borrowing money from China to build railway. It is so
unconscionable. It is this feeling of the injustice which this act of impunity
inflicts on the society that is my motivating factor.
